I recently had the opportunity to chat with hymn writer and recording artist Matt Papa to pick his brain about music. Matt is a father of five and serves at Marco Presbyterian Church in Marcos Island, FL. He is most prominently known as being part of the joint artistry project of Matt Boswell & Matt Papa which has produced some of the most sung songs in churches today, with anthems such as “His Mercy Is More”, “Come Behold The Wondrous Mystery”, and “Christ Our Hope In Life and Death”. Matt is a part of the Getty's hymn writing team which seeks to provide songs and resources for the local church. My personal favorite worship song is His Mercy is More.
What are some of your early memories of music? How did you get started in music? How did you learn to write congregational songs?
I remember our living room at home as a kid, we had a very old upright piano and I remember sitting down and different TV commercials that would come on I would try to mimic the commercial and try to figure out the songs. That’s the first thing I remember, but I always remember that music was kind of an escape; it was a way for me to “get away” but in a healthy sort of way. Then I got more into sports, and when I was 12 I picked a guitar back up, and then I was full on in music.
How did you go from being semi-interested in music to saying, “I think this could be a career”?
Well, I didn’t really know if it could be a career, per-se, but I remember when I was 12 I started playing guitar, and when I was 13 I started helping play in the church, and then 14, 15 more of the same and doing some little garage bands and little things like that. But I do remember when I started playing music at the church and seeing how that impacted people and seeing just the power of it. Music itself is powerful, you have concert experiences and that kind of thing happening, and then you put God in the mix— not that God is a cherry on top— but when you have both of those things happening at the same time, it’s a really powerful thing. And then people just singing together! That became very, very interesting to me, and I just started doing it as much I possibly could, anywhere and everywhere. Basically through north Georgia, through the southeast, through my early twenties I saved up as much money as I could when I was 21, just out of college, I made an album, drove to Nashville, slept on a guy’s couch for two weeks and made an album. Like I said, no idea what I was doing, but that kind of got the journey started.
And so that’s how you started writing songs, I’m assuming, as well?
Yeah, it was mainly for that, because I knew that I wanted to do an album in college, so I was like, “OK, if I wanted to do an album I gotta write some songs” So that kind of got me started on that journey, so I didn’t really start writing songs until I was maybe 19 or 20.
Were they always of the congregational nature, or more indie-folk?
It was all over the place at first, because I just didn’t know what I was doing. I didn’t know what I wanted to do, I was just interested in music and interested in God and just wanted to something that I thought was interesting, so I was all over the place. But there certainly were elements of— because I was playing music in the church— there were songs that I would want to try to lead when I would play somewhere on a Friday night or a Wednesday night. So it was a little all over the place, a mixture. I remember in the beginning in my head what I was gonna do what somewhere in the realm of Keith Green mixed with like Bono or something.
Ha!
In my head that’s what I was gonna do, but that’s pivoted over time and taken a different shape. But that’s kind of where it started.
That’s very helpful to hear, I appreciate that. What was the process after getting your feet wet with writing some of first songs or first album into now you write a lot of very intentional, specifically congregational melodies. And correct me if I’m wrong, but you are one of the main melody writers for the Getty’s team, correct?
Yeah, I guess so. Yeah.
So what was that transition like? How did you learn to write a really carefully crafted melody?
Well, again, I don’t know that it was really that I set out to be doing what I’m doing today, you know it’s funny how I think most of the time people’s careers you kind of meander and you end up in a place kind of related to what you started doing, but it’s maybe not what you expected. So that’s my case as well. So all along the way I was writing these songs and sometimes I would put a hymn-ish sort of a song on an album because I was just interested in that. I have always been interested in classical music and folk music, and that’s basically what hymns are, they’re kind of the hybrid of those two worlds. So I would do those along the way, and then as I was doing my thing in a peripheral sense, those songs seem to be catching on, people became really interested in those songs and started using those songs in church, etc. and I was like “Huh, that’s interesting” and then it just slowly morphed into leaning into that. I guess the more and more I saw people find meaning in those songs, I found meaning in writing them. It became in a way at first a pill to swallow, but the more I practiced and basically learned to appreciate and hone the craft of what it is to write that sort of a melody, cuz it’s quite a tricky thing, kind of a puzzle. So that in itself is kind of a little craft and art form. But at the same time I began to find the interest in that. And then also just seeing how those songs were so meaningful to people and were being used and helping a lot of people. I think any career path you end up in, the more people you can help, usually the more meaning you find in it. So that’s kind of how I’ve pivoted and leaned into this whole world. Again, it’s not really what I expected to be doing, but there’s a ton of value in it, there’s a ton of meaning in it. I get comments almost every day from people on how maybe they’ve sung a song in their church, and “Thank you so much!” Or they’ve walked through a dark season of their lives and they were singing this song in this season. So writing these sort of simple songs that resonate with a broad audience, it’s a cool thing.
That’s so cool to hear! I can definitely say that I’ve been greatly encouraged by your songs as well, so I thank you very much for your work. So, a lot of times when you write songs, a lot of times you’re writing the main parts of the melody, and Boswell mainly writing lyrics, correct?
Yeah, it’s not always that cut and dry— but generally, yes.
Would you walk me through some of your songwriting process? What’s the writing room look like for you— how do you compose new melodies?
Usually it starts for me in the morning and I just kind of plop down at the piano to start tinkering and really I’m just messing around. But some kind of combination of things I’ll do— like “Oh, that’s interesting” and then I’ll immediately kind of push or shove it into the framework of what I do for a living, which is writing these hymns, and see how this little theme or motif fit into that world. And then I end up with two or three ideas like that on my phone, and then I go to my office and open up Logic and record those ideas as demos. Sometimes I pluck out the melody with octave pianos or babble lyrics, or sometimes I’ll write lyrics if something makes sense to me in the moment. Maybe there’s an old title Boz’ sent me or an old lyric from an old hymn, sometimes I’ll insert those on top of the melody. Then I send them to a group of guys and most of the time I get no response and I move on with my day! I go workout or do something at the church or whatever. But sometimes somebody will respond and say “Hey, that’s an interesting melody” So basically those melodies get stacked, and stacked, and stacked, and over time we have a stack of ideas that we are always able to work on and move the ball down the field. The best ideas rise to the surface, and you focus on those, and that’s how it goes.
That’s really cool to hear. As a music composition major, I’m a music nerd too. So getting into the weeds a little bit, I notice you use some of the same motives, and sequences, patterns, throughout your songs. For example, a lot of times you’ll start on scale degree 5 to scale degree 1 of a verse or you’ll end a chorus on scale degree 1. So what are some other things that you find work really well for your melodies that you gravitate towards?
Yeah go ahead, nerd out! I think when it comes to that… me and my buddy were talking today about John Williams and his different motifs. I think all that is a fingerprint in a way, and I don’t know how calculated that really is. It could be calculated sometimes, but I think a lot of times it’s kind of in your DNA a little bit. There’s those very subtle nuances of groove and feel that sort of become a fingerprint in a way, and that’s so much of what’s nurtured and what your background is. I generally think it’s mostly subconscious of themes carrying over. There probably are certain cases, but as a songwriter I am more often than not I am trying to avoid that. Maybe John Williams films, for composers, are doing it intentionally to have a thread. I am more so trying to avoid it because I am in the world I am in— the world of congregational singing kind of music— there is such a degree of simplicity to it that you are actually fighting more to find distinctiveness. You actually want to avoid the things you’ve done before as much as you can. Does that make sense, is that helpful?
Yeah, totally! In the vein of trying to be original, what role does form and meter have in congregational songwriting? It seems like it is an intrinsic nature to the craft. How does that play out in your writing?
I think I’m thinking of that after the fact. I think I’m more starting with some kind of melodic theme that seems intriguing or interesting to me. Then as that becomes more organized, I’ll find that melodic singing motif and say “Let’s try it in 3/4, let’s try it in 4/4, let’s try it in 5/4” just to shake it around. And then suddenly when you do it in 4/4 it triggers this other idea that’s more interesting, and you go after that. I do like that, but there’s all kinds of tricks! I also enjoy finding that melodic motif and then sing it a cappella a few times— like, I’ll just go outside and sing it a cappella. But if there’s too much space, or it just doesn’t work, then that’s indicating something. I think composing a cappella is a great thing to do in this world. Keith [Getty] is always sending us links to things like videos of soccer games in stadiums where the entire stadium is constantly singing. It’s interesting to find those melodies that have that kind of guttural, massive, masculine, booming kind of a sound. I think writing a cappella is helpful to find those kinds of tunes. Then beyond that, I’ll look at how does it fit together, does it need a chorus, that kind of thing.
I’d imagine in this day in age it’s something that’s almost devalued to have songs that are more congregational in nature, maybe it’s not as radio-catchy, but by singing songs a cappella you’re utilizing them more for the nature of congregations than recordings— although you do recordings. So this reminds me of something that Ben Shive [producer and songwriter, Ben Rector, The Gray Havens, Andrew Peterson, Steven Curtis Chapman] always says about you is that your melodies aren’t just memorable, but they make the congregation want to sing more— like when you write a higher note in the chorus that rings out, for example. Just as you were saying, if there’s too much dead space, it can discourage singing. What are some other things that you do that don’t just make a good melody, but make a good congregational melody?
Yeah, that’s a good question. In my head, I always have “Deacon Billy” the guy serving on the back pew that has his arms crossed— it’s gotta work with that guy. It’s gotta connect with him, it can’t just be pretty. It ought to be pretty, it ought to be interesting, but it ought to connect with him. He needs to be able to understand and sing it. The best products in the world of anything, like restaurants or anything, are always a simple concept that are easy to understand. You go in, and you say, “I get it” you know what I mean? The menu is not 1,000 pages long. It has to be a simple concept, both lyrically and melodically. You have to be able to get it. That’s an important framework I think through.
Obviously range goes without saying, you have to be able to sing it. But there are always things that break the mold of that, like Be Thou My Vision is an octave and a fourth I think. There are songs that make you reach, and that’s sometimes ok. You have the rules and then you break the rules.
What else? Beyond just a great melody what makes a great congregational melody? Along with that sentiment of stadium songs, I find most great folks songs and songs that work well are mainly pentatonic. I don’t think it’s always the case, but when you add the fourth and the seventh it tends to weaken a melody. It’s hard to explain the science or aesthetics of that, but it just does. The pentatonic notes just trace out the root notes and power notes of the scale so much better. So, I try to stick to those, but it’s hard because if you only stick to those, it’s hard to create something that’s distinct as well, so it’s definitely a puzzle.
I’m glad that you mentioned pentatonic melodies, because something I’ve been noticing like you’re saying, four and seven can just weaken a melody. But sometimes I’ve noticed that scale seven on the lower octave can weaken it, but a lot of times like In Christ Alone or some of your songs like Christ The True and Better or The Everlasting Love of God you’ll hit the seventh scale degree on the upper octave. Is that intentional? Do you think about that?
Yeah, I think usually think that when you hit the one on the higher octave it’s almost just a passing tone from the one and six. But sometimes— one song that did it well recently was King of Kings, (“Ma-jes-ty”) it’s one of the more solid times when they kind of stick it. So sometimes it can work. But yeah, it’s a tricky thing.
Just a nerd comment, I had to ask!
What would you say is one of your favorite songs that you’ve written, and why is it one of your favorite song?
I think I would say "LORD From Sorrows [Deep I Call]" is up there. I remember I was in Atlanta and I wrote that one night sitting at a piano in a living room in the dark. There’s something special to me about that song. It started as a melody, it had no title, no anything.
I really like Randy Newman. [composer and songwriter, A Bug’s Life, Toy Story, Monster’s Inc.] I think he could have been a really good hymn writer. His songs… I think great church songs, great folks songs have this thing about them that they are in a way both masculine and feminine, both happy and sad. And that song, "LORD From Sorrows", always had that. It felt kinda happy in a way, but also kind of sad. It’s in a major key, so usually you’d think, “OK, it’s gonna be a happy song” but it’s not really. That melody, there a little bit of despair and sadness in it. I remember we wrote a lyric to it at first, I’m not remembering what it was… but it was an entire song we wrote to it. It was about prayer or something. But we thought, “This isn’t sad enough” and we ended up going to Psalm 42 and it unlocked something.
But yeah, I would say that one. I still enjoy playing it just as a melody by itself. To me, the best songs, the best worship songs, or the best songs period— what makes them great is that you can separate the lyric from the melody and the melody stands alone as a piece of beautiful music by itself. And the lyric stands alone as a piece of beautiful poetry by itself. When you combine those things together, it’s a really powerful thing.
What would you say is your best piece of advice in general?
Just get to work! If you want to be a songwriter, just start writing— and you’re a writer. I don’t think you’re a professional writer until you get money for it, but I think you gotta write as if you’re already a professional writer. It’s tricky because you’re not always in a position in life that you have the space or the free time if you’re working two or three different jobs. It can be a grind. But one way I’ve started thinking about it— and this is probably a crass way to think about it— but if you have a job in sales, it’s just quantity. It’s just knocking on doors. And honestly, so much of it is about talent, so much of it is about who you know and all that. But I think, bigger than that, at the end of the day it’s just quantity. If you can take a long enough time rising and you keep at it, keep at it, you’re gonna get better no matter what. I don’t mean you’re gonna have a hit song, but you’re going to improve. That’s guaranteed. If that is a goal, which I think is a great goal to have, to improve as a writer, than it just takes quantity.
So going off of your advice of “getting to work,” how would you describe your work ethic?
I would say it’s pretty good, I would say usually after an album like right now— we just recorded an album in September— [“The Hymns of Matt Boswell & Matt Papa, Vol. 3”] I tend to be a little slower. I guess you could think of a field, you work the field, you let the field rest like farmers say. I think your brain sometimes needs that, but usually I’m writing two or three hymn melodies every day, that’s kind of what I do. Like I said, I usually send them over and there’s no response, but it’s a rhythm.
Love it. Do you play any part in the musical process outside of songwriting in arranging, production, etc.?
Yeah! I love to. In the early days I was co-producer on projects and loved it. But working with more heavy-hitters now I try to shut up a little more and let them do what they’re paid to do; but I do really enjoy it. The guys we work with like Ben Shive or Nathan Nockels [producer and songwriter, Chris Tomlin, Matt Redman, Shane & Shane] they’re always super gracious, almost over the top. If me or Boz’ suggests, “Hey, what if we deleted verse three and added a chorus” or shake up the song, they’ll be like “Yeah, let’s try it!” They’re always full-on open to ideas— usually they’re not good ideas, but we throw ‘em out there.
What process does that play in your own music? For example, in “Vol. 2” you had lots of really great string arrangements on the album which I just loved.
Yeah, sometimes I’ll have a really specific thing in my head when I write the song, like I wanted it to have this drum groove. So I’ll let the producer know and usually they’re great with it. But again, sometimes I try to shut up because sometimes it’ll be better than what I had in my head. It’s a tricky thing. Ben [Shive] is amazing with his strings, he’s amazing with that; and then Nockels is just… I can’t quantify why Nockels is amazing, he just is. The way he edits live stuff and post-production is unreal. But he’s lined up amazing players, and amazing talent, so we try to stay in our lane.
I’d just like to thank you personally for your music, both musically and spiritually. I’m an arranger and songwriter myself, and I’ve learned a wealth of information from studying your songs, so thank you so much for your time and your music!
Thanks man! It was great to chat with you. All the best! ~
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